(20.7.05 04:45) It was not the secularism of the 20th century that led to the problems you describe - it was the fanatical political ideologies of Fascism and Communism. Equally the fanatical religious ideologies have in the past and are now causing problems. What we need to fight is fanaticism in all it's forms. Secularism is simply the divorcing of religion from politics which in my view is an extremely good idea.

(20.7.05 09:02) what i attempted to argue is that secularism by itself does not secure peace. just this and not saying that secularism is the cause of war or violence. same about religion. about the issue of separion between religion and politics, i think this is something relted to the west's experience and not relevant to Islam. if you consider islam is a religion which is realized in the form of a formal social instituion (as currently we are witnessing) I not only agree with you that this institution must be separted from politics but also more radically i believe the religous institution of islam must be eventually disappeared. becasue i believe islam was originially anti-institution, anti-authority and critical to both religous institutions and political power. so for the best place for islam is civil society, as a social force/movement to tame political-econimic power. islam is anti-power movement, how it can be separated from politics, if as feminists truly say "the personal is political" why not our personal identity be separated from politics. islam give us normative ideas to deal with politics, like other secularist ideologies such as liberalism etc. while in the western culture body and soul, material and spirtual, culture and politics are forced to be separated, my islam does not accept this and want to provide a dialectical relation between them.

anne (15.9.05 13:16) Dear Sir/Madam I believe the crux of the problem lies right here...with this statement: "But I don’t believe that "any body has any exclusive rights in interpreting any religion, any historical event, any ideology or concept like democracy or human rights." Now, here is the problem: Someone does have exclusive rights in interpreting religion, historical events, etc....the one I am talking about, is the one who holds the POWER....the one that controls the military....the reality is, Islam is enforced by the one who holds the control (authority)...that has always been the way in this religion. What you speak of is idealism. Whatever you 'feel' about Islam, really makes no difference to those in power, unless they are in accordance with your view also, which, they aren't... What you express in this sentence, can also be interpreted differently: "I do not believe that if any specific interpretation of history/religion which has become popularized and dominant due to the supports from those who are in power in order to justify their governance based on manipulating history, is the truest version of that religion or ideology just because of its popularity." Substitute the term "popularized" with "enforced"...and your statement is more relevant, I believe. Again, substitute the term again here...."Popularity {enforcement}does not bring authenticity unless it is gained in a very free, open society where anybody without any fear is able to expose herself. ".... Islam is enforced upon people, many of which don't agree with its interpretation....but because those enforcing the religion, also are backed with the Power to enforce it...you aren't really able to interpret Islam other than the accepted terms ordered by those in power. Personally, i believe Islam can be democratized.....but it needs free thinkers in order to do it...it need philosophers, men with vision so that it is able to encompass the body politic which runs thru Islam. What the US is attempting in Iraq, is to give Muslims that chance. Don't just look at the current govt in Iraq, as a puppet of the US....its only a temporary measure until Iraqis are able to wrap their brains around new concepts...this wont happen overnight, especially since those who want to carry on in the manner of Saddam, are fighting against this...(the US was in {occupied} both Germany and japan, while they formulated their new gov ts after WWII...we were in both countries for 7 years, that's how long it took for them to rebuild themselves and install a new govt...if you look at their current systems, neither are identical to the US...they evolved a political system that reflects their cultures...) Not all Muslims want a pious life, but want religion infused in their lives according to THEIR choices, not those in power....People deserve, have a right, to make their own decisions, that's the purpose of democracy... This sentence right here, explains exactly what democracy is: "What we need to do is to clarify our definitions and get involve in a free, equal and coercion-free sphere of dialogue with others. If we do not have such spheres, we need to build them; one way is such public on line forums, or offline ones in our communities." And this is exactly what those in charge want to stop... I will tell you this, if the US loses in Iraq, we will have lost a lot, but the Iraqis will lose more, much more... As a personal opinion, i believe the problem is there is no single voice for Islam, as catholics have a pope, to determine the parameters of its religion....with Islam lacking this it is free to interpret itself endlessly, with only those holding power the true arbiter of its doctrines.... I hope i was able to get my points across to you...I enjoyed reading your article....

anne (15.9.05 13:16) Dear Sir/Madam I believe the crux of the problem lies right here...with this statement: "But I don’t believe that "any body has any exclusive rights in interpreting any religion, any historical event, any ideology or concept like democracy or human rights." Now, here is the problem: Someone does have exclusive rights in interpreting religion, historical events, etc....the one I am talking about, is the one who holds the POWER....the one that controls the military....the reality is, Islam is enforced by the one who holds the control (authority)...that has always been the way in this religion. What you speak of is idealism. Whatever you 'feel' about Islam, really makes no difference to those in power, unless they are in accordance with your view also, which, they aren't... What you express in this sentence, can also be interpreted differently: "I do not believe that if any specific interpretation of history/religion which has become popularized and dominant due to the supports from those who are in power in order to justify their governance based on manipulating history, is the truest version of that religion or ideology just because of its popularity." Substitute the term "popularized" with "enforced"...and your statement is more relevant, I believe. Again, substitute the term again here...."Popularity {enforcement}does not bring authenticity unless it is gained in a very free, open society where anybody without any fear is able to expose herself. ".... Islam is enforced upon people, many of which don't agree with its interpretation....but because those enforcing the religion, also are backed with the Power to enforce it...you aren't really able to interpret Islam other than the accepted terms ordered by those in power. Personally, i believe Islam can be democratized.....but it needs free thinkers in order to do it...it need philosophers, men with vision so that it is able to encompass the body politic which runs thru Islam. What the US is attempting in Iraq, is to give Muslims that chance. Don't just look at the current govt in Iraq, as a puppet of the US....its only a temporary measure until Iraqis are able to wrap their brains around new concepts...this wont happen overnight, especially since those who want to carry on in the manner of Saddam, are fighting against this...(the US was in {occupied} both Germany and japan, while they formulated their new gov ts after WWII...we were in both countries for 7 years, that's how long it took for them to rebuild themselves and install a new govt...if you look at their current systems, neither are identical to the US...they evolved a political system that reflects their cultures...) Not all Muslims want a pious life, but want religion infused in their lives according to THEIR choices, not those in power....People deserve, have a right, to make their own decisions, that's the purpose of democracy... This sentence right here, explains exactly what democracy is: "What we need to do is to clarify our definitions and get involve in a free, equal and coercion-free sphere of dialogue with others. If we do not have such spheres, we need to build them; one way is such public on line forums, or offline ones in our communities." And this is exactly what those in charge want to stop... I will tell you this, if the US loses in Iraq, we will have lost a lot, but the Iraqis will lose more, much more... As a personal opinion, i believe the problem is there is no single voice for Islam, as catholics have a pope, to determine the parameters of its religion....with Islam lacking this it is free to interpret itself endlessly, with only those holding power the true arbiter of its doctrines.... I hope i was able to get my points across to you...I enjoyed reading your article.... Anne

Islamic Humanism (17.9.05 07:52) Many thanks Anne for your comments; I appreciate them I used the term popularized instead of enforced bcz in most of Islamic societies except in the case of Iranian theocratic regime; the dominant interpretations of Islam are not in accordance with the dominant political systems that have shown inability in solving crises. Although the majority of Muslims have not supported Osama Bin Laden and Islamic extremists' positions on how to deal with the West, they also have not shown enough support for human rights and democracy. They still see democracy and human rights as things imported and induced on them mainly through secular reformist intellectuals who belong to a well-educated middle class. Recently because of the intervention of the US in the region in the name of such values, many have come to this point that even these ideas are just means for hegemony. Progressive Muslims with free interpretations of Islam which proves the deepness of humanism, freedom, civil rights and justice in Islam are not only marginalized inside the Islamic countries but also deeply ignored by the Western leaders and even intellectuals.., mainly bcz western intellectuals identifying Islam with Christianity have not believed that Islam has any inherent capacity to be a source of emancipation and enlightenment. The other reason is that many progressive Muslims especially those who gain opportunity to mobilize Muslims against mullahs and non-democratic Islamic traditions have also been in opposition to the dominance of the US and USSR and even proved themselves as Leftist thinker against Imperialism of both West and East (USSR). the best example is Dr. Shariati in Iran. So they have become completely ignored by both liberalist and socialist thinkers in the West. The current dominant version of Islam (except in Iran today) has gained its popularity through networks of deception (mullahs, mosques, etc.). These networks were established physically before the era of colonization through strong links with the pre-modern political systems and therefore they were in favor of power. However, they were able to survive during the poppet modern regimes in colonization because the colonizers and their poppet regimes believed the Islamic traditional networks are not inherently able to mobilize people against political power. They were right in somehow. Most of mobilizations against colonizers were arranged by those who were rejected and disdained by the traditionalist networks (majority of mullahs). Even Khomeini did not received support from Islamic madreseh (schools). His real supporters were ordinary people, very young mullahs, and students. The anti-colonization movements were either Islamic extremists for saving traditions or progressive Muslims for democracy and justice or Leftist secular intellectuals. Today, Islamic traditionalist networks are losing their popularity to Islamic extremist ones mainly because they have compromised with the poppet regimes (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia etc.). Islamic extremists have been able to grow because of the impact of the unsolved Palestine-Israel crises, the corruption of US friendly regimes, and the growing inequality and poverty among ordinary people. However, the irony is that they have used the dominant discourse of Islam which was popularized by the traditionalist networks, and they have become a new radicalized spirit in the body of such networks independent of political power. If you ask Ayatollah Sistani (the grant traditionalist mullah in Iraq who is endorsed by the US as a friend for progressing democracy there and to defuse extremism) about democracy, west, human rights, freedom, violence in Islam, stoning adulterers, cutting hands of thieves in Islam, etc. he will answer you exactly the same as what Bin Laden and Sadr will answer you. The main difference between them will be their strategy in dealing with the Western Culture and Westerner influences. The former wants to compromise and the latter prefer violence. However both do not believe that the main problem in Islamic societies is related to freedom, democracy, rights, and justice. None of them are enforced to people at the moment through those who have political power; rather they have been able to popularize their interpretations through claiming exclusive rights for themselves in interpreting Islam and denouncing any other free interpretations of Islam which comes from outside their traditional schools of deception. Relying on the less-violent networks of Islam like Sistani and mullahs like him, the US may gain short -term success in hampering extremism in Iraq, but won't be able to establish a sustainable democracy. The irony is that whether the US win or lose, people of Iraq will be the greater looser. Because they have to choose between traditionalist version of Islam (which is not inherently in favor of democracy-human rights, but rather in favor of inequality between men and women) or Islamic extremism which is violent and we can see its future in the case of Taliban or today Iran. The only fortune for Muslims and the rest of the world in relation to Islamic countries is the growth of a ‘radical democratic reform in the very ideational basics of Islam’ towards its humanist origins while denouncing Clergism. Such an option will not be cheered by the neo-cons, warmongers and their corporationist friends since such a democratic Islam will think of a participatory economy independent of OIL market; a politics in which people can participate equally, regardless of their social status, in running elections, making decision about to control their own natural resources, and controlling media. If Muslims had a Pop, it might have been easier for the US to control it since the control of something centralized might be easier than something plural. But, even in that case I am sure that Pop would loose his legitimacy very soon as far as the deep crises would have been persisting in the region due to the lack of structural enthusiasm for equality and freedom in the traditionalist Papal Islam.

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